Jon Levy - You're Invited
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Despite the many interesting things promised in networking, people continue to stay away from it because of its culture of manipulation. It's missing one important element: a sense of belongingness. Join this conversation with Jon Levy, a behavioral scientist, to talk about his book, You're Invited. Our discussion takes us through a step-by-step process of cultivating influence to improve work, business, and life. We delve into how people can grow and move forward by forging genuine emotional connections, even in the face of vulnerability and imperfections. Life must be treated as an infinite game, bringing people together on an endless journey of trust, honesty, and benevolence.
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Jon Levy - You're Invited
The Art And Science Of Cultivating Influence
Do you want to know how to cultivate influence and meet those who do? Then you're going to love my guest in this episode, Jon Levy. He is a behavioral scientist specializing in influence, human connection, and decision making. He also started the Influencers Dinner, a dining experience for industry leaders, ranging from Nobel laureates to Olympic athletes, and from celebrities to executives. With his book, You're Invited, Jon takes us step by step through the art and science of cultivating influence to improve our work, our businesses and our lives. A special thanks to my patrons who make this show possible. If you enjoy reading, please subscribe and visit my website, BarryKibrick.com to become a supporter of this show.
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Jon, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure having you on. What I find so interesting about the book, You're Invited, was the reason which I never knew before, why you decided to bring people together and the definition was in a way, that's different from networking.
First of all, I grew up really unpopular. I was a super geek before being a geek was cool. It’s now like the Avengers and comic books, and people are like, “Me too.” Everybody loves that stuff. When I was growing up, I didn't fit in but I figured that if I could understand how people behave, then I could maybe figure out how to make some real friends. When I was in my twenties, I made some progress. I was in the seminar. The seminar leader said that the fundamental element that defines the quality of our lives are the people we surround ourselves with and the conversations that we have with them.
That left me with two options. Option one was to talk to the people in my life about different things and option two was to figure out how to connect with people. I realized that if I connected people to one another, then it only served to strengthen the relationships that we had. I want to know the most extraordinary people and I want them to know each other, so those positive behaviors spread through a community.
More than knowing, you emphasized it a number of times in You’re Invited, your book and it is the feeling of belonging that you want to nurture and develop. That's an added level as far as I can see.
You mentioned that people dislike networking and I would wholeheartedly agree. The issue with networking is that it makes us feel dirty and research has shown us that implicit association is wanting to wash. We don't feel that way about making friends and that's because one feels natural and the other one feels a manipulation. It’s like I'm using somebody. Human beings evolved in groups and we're not the fastest and strongest. Our strength for survival is fundamentally being able to work together and that requires belonging. If you look, the greatest punishment, in most places, is either solitary confinement or exile, which means that, for us, the biggest punishment is saying you can no longer be part of the community. At the core of being human is this need to belong.
Connections according to you, they're not knowing each other. They are sharing emotions. Shared emotional connections are the key to fostering this feeling of belonging. I belonged to a bowling league once and it was cool, but I didn't get that shared emotional connection. In fact, it's why I quit. I wasn't able to stay on that same level with everybody in that league. That's an important element that people need to hear. It's not connecting on a level of activity, it's caring and sharing on an emotional connection.
Here's what's interesting about what you said. First of all, human beings have no logical side at all. We're basically emotions that justify things with bad logic, which is why if we're having a bad day, we’ll justify having a dessert or buying ourselves that thing that we want at the store. The interesting thing about that is that it's not about being a part of a community. It's feeling like you are. It’s not about belonging, it's about the feeling of belonging. I could be a card-carrying member of the bowling league but it doesn't mean that I feel like I belong and that's what's important.
There's great research by these two guys, McMillan and Chavis and they were realizing that for us, for humans, it's about this sense of community and this feeling that we're part of something. They founded the four critical elements. The first is this sense of membership. There's a clear group that's on the inside and the outside. In the bowling league, it might be that you're a card-carrying member and the Girl Scouts, it might mean that you took some oath and wear the uniform. For doctors, it might be passing all of your medical exams and being board certified but there's a clear distinction.
There are also several other characteristics and one of them is influenced. Feeling that you have an impact on the group and the group has an impact on you. You might be part of the bowling team. If you feel like you don't matter, then you won't feel a sense of belonging. If you have no influence over the group or your fellow players, there are two other factors and essentially an alignment of integration of fulfillment and needs, which is that you're heading in the same direction. If everybody there wanted to be a pro bowler and you didn't, they wouldn't be the right community for you, because you're not aligned on what you care about. The final part is shared history and values. What I love about that one is that stuff's clear for religious organizations. What's even funnier to me is that it doesn't even have to be real history. Did you ever read the Harry Potter series?
If I say I didn't, I'm in trouble. If I say I did, I'm lying so either way, I'm going wrong here. I'm going to take the Fifth.
It’s a good answer in your case. There's this incredible photo of two young women dressed up as students at Hogwarts School for Witchcraft and Wizardry, the school from Harry Potter. There is Universal Studios at Diagon Alley, the Harry Potter portion of Universal. They're dressed full-on and they're holding wands and they're crying hysterically. The reason they're crying isn't because there's something wrong, but more so that they for the first time in their lives feel like they're participants in the story that meant so much to them. They had a shared history and values. It was so emotionally overwhelming, even though it wasn't real. Everybody acknowledges it isn't real but it's real to them as a set of values in history.
You say what that does and I want to be careful how we phrase this because it has almost another term. Emotional safety is what was developing there.
It’s called psychological safety.
That’s what’s happening between them. They sensed that for the first time they're not alone.
They fundamentally feel like they are part of something that is larger than themselves. They belong, feel safe and they feel recognized. That in itself is pretty rare. Here's a staggering piece of knowledge. In 1985, the average American had about three close friends besides family. By 2004, less than a generation later, we were down to about two. This is absolutely insane. In nineteen years, Americans lost 1/3 of their social ties. This is way before the pandemic clearly and far before social media took off. The culprit here is probably moving for work. The more people pick up and move, they have to reset their social ties each time and as a result, they end up feeling isolated, disconnected or losing social ties.
Sense Of Belongingness: Human beings' strength for survival is fundamentally being able to work together, and that requires belonging.
What's concerning about this is a few things. One is that the greatest predictor of human longevity isn't a papaya cleanse that you picked up at the local Whole Foods. The greatest predictor is number two, which is close social ties and number one, is social integration. Coming in contact with a lot of people and feeling like they're part of a community. What concerns me about this is that if we're becoming more and more isolated, then we have less and less of this feeling of belonging and we have less and less social ties.
Jon, may I ask you something, because I have noticed that but at the same time, some of my ties because have gotten more contained, they also feel a little stronger. I don't know if that will compensate for the fact that they have shrunk by 1/3 but I do sense that in my case and I can only speak for myself, I'm not a scientist like yourself. I feel like the ties that I do have seem to fulfill me in a certain way that the larger group did not. Maybe that's because I'm getting older. I don't know the reason why but I am feeling content with lesser ties than I did in my earlier years.
Let's separate two things. One is, you're outgoing, charismatic, and spend your life connecting with people. You have more social ties than 99.9% of the world. You pruning that down when you feel like you have different priorities in life probably won't have a huge impact in terms of total numbers versus a person who only has four close friends, moves and is down to two. Those are different experiences. The other aspect is that the loneliest people in our society are not the oldest. It seems to be inversely related to age.
Gen Z is reporting feeling completely unseen and unconnected. They feel isolated. That means that they're probably not experiencing a profound sense of belonging anywhere. With people spending less and less time at companies and now not even ever going into a company, people are getting hired online, living in their parent's homes and meeting only the three or four people that they need direct contact with in the company. Our social circles are shrinking even more and that's what concerns me.
That goes back to You’re Invited. You want to bring more people together. Let's separate this because you're dealing with influential people who come together and I was honored to be invited to one of these most amazing dinners. What does Gen Z, Gen X and whoever else might be suffering from? What outlets are we going to create? I don't see the Mason’s Lodge opening up again. I don't see everyone going back to church. There was that bowling. There was even a great book called Bowling Alone. It's shrinking. By the way, this is going to sound strange, but that's how I used to bowl. I was by myself. That's how I loved it but let me take myself.
The key with behavioral science is never to confuse people for a person. What I mean by that is that I might give a statistic that says 95% of people fit into this category. You could be in the 5% that don't. There are too many mitigating circumstances to evaluate any one person but across the general population, these things tend to be true. As human beings, it’s something called this false consensus effect which assumes that most people agree with our opinion of the world. We assume we're intelligent and thereby others must hold the same view.
We also have something called the frequency illusion, in which we misevaluate the frequency to which things happen simply because they are more salient to us. If I ask people, “Are they scared of shark attacks?” They said, “Yeah. They happen all the time.” You look at the statistics and they never happened. People are terrified of terrorism. Nobody dies of terrorism. Nobody has died of terrorism in I don't even know how long. It's not because we might have a great intelligence community supporting us but because the things that kill people are walking like heart attacks and cholesterol. The slow killers but we don't think about that because those things aren't as salient. They aren't as easy to remember. They're not as terrifying to see as a building exploding. The key when we're looking at human behavior is understanding that there are certain generalities that are true across most people and they might not be true specifically about you and that's fine.
You hit it on the head. I always assumed, if I'm feeling it, someone else is feeling it. I still think there's an element to that. There is still this human connection we have. A perfect example from the book is we all struggle with something. By the fact that we all struggle and especially as you said, when you were younger you felt a failure, almost all of us at one time with some outliers, feel like a failure and feel like we're struggling. You give us a little key to that and that is you say, being honest about our struggles could set us free and maybe even reverse some of the negative aspects of the way we're moving if we do open up about our struggles. That might even be the easiest way to reconnect because what else do we all have in common? There is the fact that we struggle.
You bring up two interesting points. The first is that people love to try and seem perfect and that they have it all together. It turns out that there's a behavioral bias known as the pratfall effect. It essentially states that if you screw up a little in front of people, they’d like you more. The reason why in romantic comedies the lead male or female are always falling all over themselves. They're clumsy and silly is it makes it endearing. If people looked too perfect, it makes us uncomfortable because there's nothing human about it. Researchers ran an experiment where they had people go in for interviews. They had some of the participants accidentally spill some coffee on themselves or drop some papers.
When looking at ratings, the ones that dropped stuff and spilled stuff, rated higher. That's because it takes the pressure off when somebody is imperfect and acknowledges it. It comes back to how human beings develop trust. There's this misconception that trust precedes vulnerability but it doesn't. The two of us were walking down the street and I said, “Barry, writing this book was the most stressful, exhausting experience of my life. I'm totally burnt out.”
At that moment, I've signaled vulnerability. I've said something that doesn't necessarily make me look perfect. You have a few options. You can ignore me. You can make fun of me, “Jon, you're so weak. Be tough. Work your way through it.” If you do either of those two things, trust will be reduced because I don't want to be yelled at or ignored. Instead, you acknowledge that I said that and signal vulnerability back and say, “Jon, during COVID, I've been super stressed as well. Work has been crazy. What's going on?” Suddenly you've signaled vulnerability back to the same degree and now the two of us know that we can trust each other at that higher level. That's how trust is formed. It's through these vulnerability loops. When somebody has a pratfall moment, let's call it, they dropped their papers. It's a moment of vulnerability. This gives people the opportunity to complete the loop. It's why we find them endearing.
That's why so many people were willing to cook you dinner and why you started the Influencers is because you open up vulnerability. Even as I'm listening to you, I'm going, “I’ve got to become more vulnerable.” One of the things and maybe it's generational again or what but I love to show my mistakes. I'm proud of them even and I make them often and the same ones all the time. I find that an interesting thing. I always find people who say they never make the same mistake twice. I say, “You lied because I only make mistakes over and over again.” They're not the same exact mistake, but it's the same type of mistake.
There are words that I've never in my life spelled correctly and every day I misspell the same word over and over again. You would think at 40 years old the guy would figure out the difference between there and their. The I before E in the word friend or something. I’m literally making that mistake every single day over and over again.
I had to make it part of my personality and pride myself on it. They even had a guest once who wrote The Art of the Mistake. I said, “That's what I am. I'm the art of the mistake because I do it over and over again.” At the same time, though, I want to get back to this vulnerability loop because although I am not ashamed of the mistakes I make nor am I ashamed of showing how vulnerable I am, there is an element in me that says, “I'm invincible. I don't want this to come out. I want to feel this sense of invincibility because it'll protect me in the long run and it will protect my family.” When I'm listening to you, and I even hear how the empathy pours out of your mouth, I'm a little jealous, because there's no doubt that I know, I feel sympathy but empathy is that extra level and I'm fairly certain I don't have that and I admire it in yourself and in others when I see it.
First of all, thank you. Secondly, it's interesting because, in general, human beings look their best when they're willing to look terrible. The only question is, how terrible are we willing to look? If we want to build trust and meaningful relationships, the kinds of relationships that are predictive of longevity or even team success. The greatest predictor of a team succeeding isn’t IQ and genius but something called psychological safety. The idea that you won't be eliminated from the group or reprimanded for having a dissenting view or opinion.
To have these kinds of levels of belonging requires either that we pay attention when people are opening those vulnerability loops so we can close them or it means that at times, we have to take the lead and open those vulnerabilities. If we don't then and they feel uncomfortable, then it'll never happen. Some people say, “Aren't you risking getting hurt badly?” My view is, “A few seconds of pain or whatever it is, won't compare to losing 5, 10, 15 years from my life because I’m lonely.” Loneliness is on par with smoking almost a packet of cigarettes in terms of its health impact. That's crazy.
There’s another thing you bring out and I was funny before I started doing this, I was doing a thing called Thoughts Through Time where I was looking at different philosophers. I ended up starting that with Adam Smith, the creator of the book, The Wealth of Nations, and the Father of Capitalism and Modern Economics. What I found interesting when I read your book, was that in You’re Invited, you use a term that he stressed that was so important in both the Theory of Moral Sentiments and the Wealth of Nations and now more than ever and you say this as well, benevolence.
Sense Of Belongingness: The greatest predictor of a succeeding team isn't IQ but the idea that you won't be eliminated from the group or reprimanded for having a descending opinion.
When you attach this community together, and as you say, “Trust and vulnerability, these things form a loop but benevolence is one step above.” That is when you are truly, even above competence, honesty and integrity. I remember reading that in your book. It's benevolence. When you can show this goodness, not as a, “Look how good I am,” but show this goodness to your fellow member of your community or even larger than your community.
When I was researching the book, I thought I had a pretty decent understanding of trust. I then came across a researcher by the name of Kent Grayson from the University of Chicago. He looks at understanding the deep science of trust. He pointed out that we all talk about trust as this absolutely essential factor for company success, our personal lives. If people say, “You won't have a great relationship, what’s the most important thing?” Trust and then we say communication is the tendency. That's super interesting because if I were to ask most people, “What is trust made out of?” They can't tell me.
Kent was able to break it down. He described it as trust is made up of three things. Competence, the ability to do something. Honesty, if you're truthful, and the third is benevolence. You pointed to this, Barry. They're not all equally valued. If Michael Jordan were to shoot and miss, you wouldn't say, “He's incompetent. I can't trust him.” He's arguably the greatest basketball player of all time but what you would probably say is, “He missed the shot and he’ll probably make the next one.” Breach incompetence is not a big deal. If we found out somebody was lying to us, we probably wouldn't say, “It's a one-off.” We'd probably begin to doubt everything and everything they say moving forward but there's this weird loophole and it works like this.
The two of us are walking down the street, you turn to me and say, “Jon, do you mind if we stop by a friend's house?” I’d say, “Sure. I'd be more than happy to.” When we get there, 40 of my closest friends jump out and scream, “Surprise.” It's a big celebration in honor of my book launch. Everybody has copies of You’re Invited signing everybody, whatever it is but it would be really weird if I turned to you and said, “Barry, you lied to me. I don't think we can be friends anymore.” That would be super strange and that's because as you pointed out, human beings value benevolence above honesty. If you have somebody who's incredibly skilled but has no group orientation, you don't want them on the team because that'll mean arrogance because they don't care about anybody but themselves.
Meanwhile, if you have somebody who has a higher group orientation and a lower skill, you can always upskill them but it's virtually impossible to train somebody to care about others. The people that you'd prefer are the ones that might be technically less capable but you can deal with that and care about the other human beings around them. If you're stuck in the middle of a firefight, you want to know that whoever's behind you has your back even if they're not the top shooter. That's because it doesn't matter if somebody is the top shooter if they've run away unless you are there alone.
There's a new series out called Ted Lasso. I don't know if you're familiar with that series.
I love that series.
I am begging to get Jason on my show, in fact, because I so much love that but you gave almost the plot away. I mean that in the sense of you were because what he does is the most important thing to improve that team is what you said, “Someone has your six,” as they say. Someone has your back. Not the best kicker. In fact, he trades the best player because he wasn't part of that team and the team begins to win once he does that.
That's what's interesting. In the ‘90s, the Bulls were this team that everybody admired. They had Pippen. It’s funny that I'm referencing all the sports stuff but I know nothing about sports. I know more about Quidditch from Harry Potter than I do about real sports. Dennis Rodman had this reputation of being super disruptive. Somebody asked the coach about him and he said, “You can have one Dennis Rodman, but no more.” The moment that you have another disruptive player, you've lost it all but we can handle one especially if they're that talented. I get it. Sometimes, it's tempting to have an incredibly talented person that goes to the beat of their own drum but it's also corrosive for other people because they feel less valued.
According to Project Aristotle, which is the Google project I mentioned, psychological safety is an absolutely critical element. There's a player named Shane Battier, an absolutely brilliant guy, two-time NBA champion from when he was on the Miami Heat. Somebody did a scientific study on him, but he is not a legendary player like LeBron James, Michael Jordan, or any of these other guys. He's a glue player and it's interesting because a guide Battier researchers found that every single team he was on played better because he was on it. It's not because he's the best player. It's because of his ability to function as the glue of the team. He has such incredible sportsmanship and work ethic that it causes everybody else to elevate their game. He gives people this experience of belonging and that's pretty incredible.
Jon, you emphasize that not only is that important but how do you maintain that and you say something in the book, You're Invited, caught my attention. I'm going to paraphrase it a bit but these are your words. It's the over and over of doing these micro-actions, these are all incremental improvements that are a part of what you would say, creates that glue. It’s the essence of what that player must do because they see it over and over.
If it was a one-off, it wouldn't mean anything on the positive either, so it's got to be done over and over again but the actions themselves could be small. People do not have to think that you have to do great things constantly. It's a small gesture. It could be a tap on the shoulder. It could be the fact that you do anything in a small amount of time in a small way but you do it over and over again. We're talking about group trust, it builds your own inner trust, as well.
Here's what I love about what you're pointing out. We talked about vulnerability as this base element. Traditionally, friendships or relationships are built over the long term because it takes time for those vulnerability loops to open and close. I bumped into you on the street and I asked about how your son is doing. The fact that I remember that you have a son and that I cared enough to ask opens a vulnerability loop and you can close it by sharing.
In the book, You're Invited, a little epiphany went off in my head because it would be the last thing I would have thought of. You say, for starters, you should ask people for more favors because this builds again that sense of you need them, they need you. Again, maybe it's the generations I don't know but the last thing I ever wanted to do was ask someone a favor but you opened up my mind when we even had the Zoom meeting. That's why I began to start this. When I heard you say, “You need to ask people for favors.”
I raised my hand and that was fun. You press that little button, if you don't know just shout it out. I'm the only one out of hundreds of people on this thing. I had to shout it out because I didn't know. I shouted it out and I asked a favor. I said, “Jon, I want you to be on the show.” It was, “That's why I'm going to do this.” I didn't realize that. It's weird not to realize something for so long in life and finally say, “Asking people favors is important according to Jon. I'm going to take him up on this.”
Here's what's super funny about this. I grew up the same way, “Let's not bother people. Save my favors for another day,” but it turns out that works counter what's to our benefit. The reason is like the IKEA effect. When people invest effort into us, they care more about us.
May I explain something because I don't think we talked about the IKEA effect? I read it in your book, but explain it a little bit.
The IKEA effect is that people disproportionately care about their IKEA furniture because they have to assemble it. Anything we invest effort into, we care about disproportionately. That’s why people care about their kids and not other people's because our kids are a pain in the butt that we have to get up in the middle of the night to change their diapers, feed them, help them with their homework, and wake up early to take them to soccer practice so on and so forth. This is all to say that, if I came to you, Barry, how many Emmys do you have?
I have three for doing this show and a total of six for other shows that I've done.
If I come to you and I say, “Clearly, Barry, you have an expertise in media. Can I get your advice on something?” I'm probably scared that I'm bothering you and I might be but here's what's interesting. On average, you're flattered that I came to you.
Jon, you are understating that. I'm so flattered and you're right. That's why I'm saying, I can't believe it didn't enter my mind even though that's the way I personally felt because you're right. There's nothing better than that feeling.
Here's what's even more interesting. Not only are you going to be flattered, but you will also think more of me for coming to you because, in your mind, you're pretty smart. You know your stuff and if I'm recognizing the fact that your stuff, then you think I'm even smarter. It’s like, “Clearly Jon's a smart guy. He's coming to me for advice on this topic.” When you do invest that effort, it causes you to care more about me. Not only am I benefiting by flattering you but I'm also benefiting from you investing effort and caring more.
The key is reciprocity because nobody likes a taker. Somebody who's completely selfish who takes all the time but it's pretty wild. It means that when people offer support and we say no, we're stopping a vulnerability loop. It can be insulting. I used to think of it as, “I don't want to bother them.” When somebody offers me a glass of water when I get to their home, I'm like, “I'll take two shots of tequila and a lasagna.” “But we didn't offer it.” I'm like, “Yeah, but you will.” The reason is also funny.
There was this great study done where people were stopped on the street and asked for directions. Often, they wouldn't give them because complex directions can be a pain in the butt. If they were asked for the time and asked for directions, most of the time they would give it, which means that the key is in stacking favors from small to large. When somebody puts a bit of effort into your relationship, you're viewed as somebody worthy of effort and thereby, if you ask for some more, you're more likely to get it.
You have to be careful, especially asking New Yorkers because I remember when people would ask people how to get to the Empire State Building or the Statue of Liberty, New Yorkers didn't know because they never went themselves.
I have never been to the Statue of Liberty. I assume you take a ferry from somewhere.
It's exactly right. It’s a wonderful experience by the way. I had the pleasure of doing it but it was many years after living in California, never while I was in New York.
I've lived in New York for over 40 years and I've never been to the Statue of Liberty.
I used to tell people, “The New Yorkers aren't rude. They don't know how to go to those places.” We asked them where the nearest original Ray’s Pizza is, they’d know that one but that. Jon, let me go with another thing too, especially when you were talking about Gen Z. We are now in this instant gratification feeling. In fact, it took my computer for whatever reason to open up the Word document and it felt like hours. I looked at the time. It was about two minutes. Prior to that, more than 30 years ago, you would have had to roll in a paper on a typewriter. Our time has gotten so condensed and we get so much more anxious but you are adamant that in your book that all of the things required to keep connections up, to build this trust to build this vulnerability loop, you have to look at these things as not being a sprint. It’s not something that happens immediately but you have to be patient enough to let these things evolve over time.
Finite and Infinite Games
I believe there's a book in the 1980s that came out by James Carse called Finite and Infinite Games. Carse argues that every game we play in life is either a short-term game, finite, where the rules and the score system are clear. Everybody is in agreement on it. Let's say tennis. We know how long a tennis match lasts and how you score. The rules are clear and the game has a beginning and end. The moment it ends, it's over and that's it. You can play another game after it but that game is over.
The other type of game is an infinite game. For example, the game of business. The game of business started before we were born and will continue after we die. There's no clear winner or score. It is not better to be a profitable company that earns billions versus a company that earns hundreds of millions if your personal metric is an environmental impact. There are no clear winners, no clear losers. The objective of an infinite game is to play because of the sheer joy of playing. On top of that, everybody can pick their metrics and their status or what they care about.
The key is to keep the game going as long as possible. The problems occur when people try to play infinite games as if they're finite. If you launch a company and you put lots and lots of pressure to sell a lot as if the next quarter is all that matters and you have a huge quarter but then nobody wants to do business with you after that, because you're so pushy, you have now applied finite rules to an infinite game and nobody wants to play with you anymore.
Right now, you see that occurring physically in our study of economics right now. You have this wisdom and you have this influence. How do we push that out there? Without that, I'm concerned. As you were explaining that example about business and I know that everyone is only looking at that next quarter, it makes me a little bit nervous. Not that I don't feel deep down that we as humans hopefully will figure it out but it does seem something we have to push out.
I don't have a simple solution for you. What I can tell you is that human relationships are often played, and this is why networking stinks, as if it's a finite game. As if the number of cards I collect allows me to win or lose. The number of phone calls I make allows me to win or lose. I'd say, that’s a little short-sighted and the reason is that if my only objective is to meet as many people as possible, it seems that there isn't that much joy in that. I might be able to do it for a week, but not a lifetime. The true joy of human belonging and connection is the long-term benefit. It’s developing those relationships over time. For that to happen, we need to play an infinite game. In my mind, it doesn't matter if you have a best friend now or not.
Sense Of Belongingness: If selling a lot is all that matters to you when running a business, nobody would likely work with you because of that pushy attitude.
When I was a teenager, I did not have a best friend. What matters is that we play the game of human relationships, human connection, friendships, and communities as the game that it is, which is infinite. It is played for the sheer joy of playing it. Over time, as long as you play it that way, you will probably have an improved community that has more and more interesting people in it. When I started the Influencers Dinners, it wasn't, “By the end of this quarter. I better have a Nobel laureate there.” No. The Nobel laureates will show up when they can attend. We'll keep inviting, we'll keep improving the event. We'll keep improving the invitation to make it more and more appealing and eventually they'll come. If they don't come, that's fine because I was doing it to develop great relationships, not to have this one person come to the event.
We talked about Ted Lasso and how both of us are fans because of that same philosophy that he has. You have someone in the book that I happen to also love and I had her on my show and that's Valorie Kondos Field and you kept mentioning before in this last little chunk about joy. That's the whole purpose of what she did in her philosophy of coaching the UCLA gymnastics team. It was to bring back joy into the competition. Many of those girls were brutalized practically by their coaches in the past but her sole mission was to bring back the joy. We can't overstate that. Joy is joyful.
Valorie is such an extraordinary woman because she realized, first of all, that the game she was playing was wrong. She was playing the game of, “Win at all costs so we could have bragging rights.” She then had a serious moment where she realized, “I don't value that. That's not something that inspires me. It's something that's making me miserable.” As a byproduct, all of her student-athletes were miserable. Everybody touching the program was miserable.
They went from being a solid program to being the one the worsts in the country. She realized that what would make her joyous is if she could get her student-athletes to come out of UCLA being champions in life. If they were well-rounded women ready for the world and what it had to offer. Win or lose on the court or on the mat, her job was to develop them into people that make great decisions and to build up their confidence and strength so they can succeed. The moment that she made that shift, the entire game was played differently.
I want to circle it back to your thing about asking favors because I know when she made that change, she confided in me. She made that change when she decided through her husband to ask the great Coach John Wooden, the winningest NCAA basketball coach of all time, a favor. How do you do it? She asked him that favor. That favor went back and that's how she then began to realize what John Wooden says, “Success is doing the best that you could possibly be and it's not the win or loss count.” He never ever said, “You’ve got to win this one.” It was, “Do the best you can.” It circles back. You asked favors and you bring joy. It is amazing how the words in your book tie all of that together and here you go full loop with someone who learned this by asking a favor of the greatest coach potentially of all time.
He was an exceptional human being. Decades before anybody was even considering ideas like belonging and connection, he redefined success. He defined it not by the score on the board but by the satisfaction of knowing that you put in all of the effort you could and left it all out there. He was so far ahead of his time that it's pretty incredible. What's amazing is that, in an era where everybody's obsessed with optimization, results and every piece of data that we can find, there's something amazing about hearing from coaches who value human beings first.
In your book, you talked about that and I'm going to use your words because you just said it. It was so extraordinary. The word you use and it's a word that I love and as you say, it's the most desired feeling or emotional state we have and that is awe. When we have awe, according to everything I've read and especially in your book, it's such a state of reflection and existence that it inspires us when we experience it. Yet, at the same time, we can't almost go out and try to get it. It has to come to us. You can't seek it. Awe has to find you. All you can do is be open, so when you finally see it and feel it, you can love it and appreciate it. I don't know how you can find it.
Awe is a moment that redefines your perspective on the world. You think the world is one way and you realize that it might be a completely different way. It shifts your perspective and people describe it like that moment when they held their child for the first time. Nothing physically changed between then and the moment before. They had a child in both but suddenly, they're holding this being and the universe disappears and they're fully engrossed at this moment and they realize that everything's going to change. That's pretty incredible and it's arguably the most desired human experience. If you look, what's nice about it is that people also feel more generous and more connected as a byproduct. If you can trigger it somehow, it will fundamentally redefine your ability to connect.
Maybe you just have to trigger what you can control in this random universe of ours and that would be the openness to be accepting of it. When opportunity knocks, don't forget, you’ve got to answer the door. In this case, when it happens, you’ve got to answer the awe. It comes to you.
Probably the more you're exposed to it, the more likely you're going to experience it. I often associate that with the moment when I realized how big the universe is versus how small I am. That only occurs as a byproduct of a moment of realization. I need to either be exposed to experiences or knowledge to even have something that like happen. There are twist endings of movies that can almost get us there. You watched The Sixth Sense, and you're like, “That's crazy. How did I not see that coming?” That plot device won't always get us there.
When you experienced the awe of the size of the universe, I wanted to add another layer to that. When you experience how awesome you are within that universe, that role that you play, even as infinitesimal as it may be compared to the vastness, that's another layer of awe. Let me ask you this because you hinted at it. The words you use in You're Invited, I found too irresistible not to bring it up again. It was when you were talking about the way at the top of the show, the personalities of us as individuals versus the persons but there's a term you use and you say it like this, “Our wonderful irrationalities. We are, as a species, predictably irrational.” There's something about that throughout all of this process of having to do so much in life to realize the wonder of our own irrational behavior. It is a little moment of awe for me.
The term was coined by a great behavioral economist, Dan Ariely. It is that we don't make sense but we consistently don't make sense in the same way over and over again. It's irrational but we can predict that it's going to happen. Here's a fun little example. Readers, you can play along as we do this. Barry, imagine you're going to be offered a vacation. You can either go to Romania, have your wallet stolen or go to Croatia and have an incredible meal. Which do you choose?
I read the book, It's Not Fair, Jon. I almost know the answer that I have to give here. I'm going to give the exact answer. As I always do, I always relate everything to me anyway, so that's not a problem. I'm going to give you the example back if I can. Long story short, I had an opportunity of going to a racetrack when I had no money. It’s a weird story and I'll tell it some time on another episode. I was invited to go to this track. I bet on my favorite number, which I'm not going to give because it's practically in every one of my passcodes. I bet on this horse and I bet the double and up came the two long shots and I won over $900 on this $2 bet.
You'll see how this comes back to you. The next day, I felt lucky that the guys that invited me to this wanted me to play some poker with them. During the poker game, I lost $75 to $100. I felt horrible losing that $75 to $100 that I lost all of the joy I had from that almost $1,000 of a $2 bet. Getting to that response, I don't want to get my wallet lost. That would hurt me more than the great meal would make me feel.
Human beings have something called loss aversion, which is that we tend to feel 2.5 times more pain from losing something than the pleasure we get from gaining it. On average, losing a new laptop will hurt way more than getting a new laptop or winning that money versus losing it. I don't remember who did this but they research the effect on intimate relationships. If you say something mean to your wife, Barry, that's going to take five compliments to make up for it and not 2.5. Watch out. It's why you need lots of flowers, chocolates and so on when you screw up.
This is to the readers, if you're like most people and you chose to have a great meal in Croatia, that's because human beings tend not to make decisions outside of a context. You weren't choosing between the three options. You were choosing between the ones that were similar that you could tell one is better than the other. Having a great meal is probably way better than having your wallet stolen, so you ended up in Croatia. The thing is there was nothing stopping you from having a great meal in Romania.
The entire decision process was irrational but it was irrational in a very predictable way. We knew most people were going to end up having a great meal in Croatia. Whoever among you who's reading said, “No, I wanted to have my wallet stolen because it would have been a great story.” Let me know. I can tell you where you can send your wallet. I will be happy to take it. I will take your money and that would be great. It's no problem. You can have a great story and I'll have more money. Barry and I can go to an off-track betting and see how lucky he is.
Sense Of Belongingness: Once somebody puts effort into your relationship, you're viewed as somebody worthy of that. If you ask for some more, you're more likely to get it.
You have a whole thing in the book about when you had to convert yourself to a Zoom situation during the pandemic. “You shouldn't just do a lift and shift.” I'm learning how to do that between a TV series and the podcast now. I'm learning that I can't lift from what I did and shift. I do have a little bit more time to play with you, so I'm going to take advantage of it. No matter what, I'm not going to have that much time to cover it. I do want to say that in the book, there is a section in particular about business and success in business. You hinted at what success in business was. In the book, there are guidelines of how you can influence people and be doing so in an endearing manner that is tremendous for your business.
When I say business, I don't mean even if your business is whether Google, Apple, your home business as a creator, an accountant, it doesn't matter to me. We're not going to be able to cover everything in the business section, which is important. We'll leave that for the people to read it in your book, You're Invited. The key element is showing gratitude. That is something that if I even do a little bit of a mantra in the morning, it's what I call my gratitude mantra. For some reason, when you can not only show gratitude, which is what's important on one level, but if you could internally feel grateful, you can't help but create gratitude amongst all those you come in contact within business and life.
This is super fun that you bring this up and there's a wonderful study. When you look at human happiness, there's virtually nothing I can do right now that will have you be happier in a month. If you get a new house after a month, you get used to it in maybe two months. If you get a new laptop within a week, it's what you're working with. It's often known as the hedonic treadmill. Once you get to that higher level, you get used to it and then going down feels terrible.
There is one thing that researchers have found that has an impact three months out on your happiness and that's a crazy amount of time. What it is, is if I have you sit down and pick somebody that you admire and write a letter to them expressing why you respect them, adore them, what they've done for you that's wonderful, and then you're going to do something a little bit scary. You're going to go and meet them and read the letter to them. It turns out that doing that can have a measurable increase in your happiness for the next three months. That is insanity. There's virtually nothing else that can have that impact. Even if you look at people winning the lottery, they're not particularly happy after. It is fundamentally this state of gratitude that can have a huge impact on the quality of our lives. I love that you bring that up.
Jon, on that note, I'm going to say how grateful I am that you were my guinea pig and my first invite to the show. I don't know who better and who more grateful I could be than having you as that guest, Jon. I thank you so much.
Barry, this has been an absolute treat and a privilege to be number one. Thank you for having me on.
How can people connect to you?
The website is YoureInvited.info for the book stuff. On social media, I'm @JonLevyTLB. I'm on all social media channels.
I'm going to end with your words, Jon, “The beauty of an invitation is that it has the ability to fundamentally change the dynamic.” You have changed all of our dynamics and I'm grateful that you joined me. Thank you, Jon.
Important Links:
Thoughts Through Time - Apple Podcasts
Adam Smith - Previous episode on Thoughts Through Time podcast on Apple Podcasts
@JonLevyTLB - Twitter
About Jon Levy
Jon Levy is a behavioral scientist best known for his work in influence, human connection, and decision making. Jon specializes in applying the latest research to transform the ways companies approach marketing, sales, consumer engagement, and culture. His clients range from Fortune 500 brands, like Microsoft, Google, AB-InBev, and Samsung, to startups.
More than a decade ago, Jon founded The Influencers Dinner, a secret dining experience for industry leaders ranging from Nobel laureates, Olympians, celebrities, and executives, to artists, musicians, and even the Grammy-winning voice of the bark from “Who Let the Dogs Out.” Guests cook dinner together, but can’t discuss their career or give their last name, and once seated to eat, they reveal who they are. Over time, these dinners developed into a community. With thousands of members, Influencers is the largest community of its type worldwide.